Every parliament record here in Hungary
They did a dance and were suspended. Sounds like New Zealand parliament is channeling their inner magat.
Boo
I think that was amazingly awesome. The people saying there’s a time and place, you’re correct. This was the time and place. Take a stand, make noise, make people uncomfortable. Quiet compliance is what got us here in the first place.
Culture, in MY politics?? No, no, I need to pretend all people are the same and want the same things I do, if I have the context of culture 🤢 I might have to consider people have valid perspectives I don’t share!! /s if we do that here
Also like, it’s fucking Aoteroa. In colonial nations one must be prepared for indigenous members of their government to perform cultural acts of resistance when the colonist faction of the government gets up to some shit.
From the other side of the world I saw her actions powerful and warranted. Though I do come from a country with a history of far less reasonable displays of dissatisfaction in our legislature.
Which one is that and what are the displays? (if you don’t mind sharing, of course)
It’s America, so in the modern day it’s mostly relegated to shit like reading the phone book or if lucky reading incredibly long relevant things. But we’ve had fist fights and duels as a result of congressional conflict.
The people critizing her think Americans politics are the best model.
American here and who the fuck are these insane people
They are the locals. They are indigenous New Zealanders and they are doing something that is customary in their culture in the kind of situation they were in during that session.
The New Zealand lawmakers were trying to pass a bill that would have severely reduced the rights of the locals, and this reaction is part of how the local culture demands people to act.
I think the “insane people” they were referring to are the people who “think Americans politics are the best model”?
Gross. An American.
You know a lot of us hate our government too right?
Yeah you won’t shut the fuck up about it
Okay but in this thread we’re trying to express solidarity with the Maori; do you mind?!
Can they appeal to the courts?
This call for more hakas… 💪
Hakas will continue until morale improves
My morale improved with the first one! …there is room for further improvement though 🤔
The three MPs will not receive their salaries during the suspension and will not be present during next week’s annual budget debate.
There we have it. They’re making sure that Maori people won’t have representation when taking away their rights is debated again.
This sort of thing always strikes me as odd.
There are agreed rules on language, some parliaments have dress code but besides penalties or fines a representative can be served with under no situation a representative can be barred from exercisizing their dutifully elected functions.
I have representatives in my national assembly with criminal charges that none the less exercise as they have been elected.
This is plainly stupid and abusive.
In New Zealand it is pretty common for members of parliament to get thrown out of the chamber for a whole bunch of reasons. In general you have to do whatever the speaker says, sort of like you would a judge in a court proceeding. There’s a whole lot ( perhaps dated ) rules around treating other members of the house with respect, letting them speak when their part of the process is up etc.
I think most of this is covered by this list of rules: https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/parliamentary-rules/standing-orders-2017-by-chapter/chapter-3-general-procedures/
I don’t know about the NZ parliament, but in the UK parliament upon which it is based it absolutely possible for members to be thrown out of the chamber. It’s not even that rare. Famously Dennis Skinner was kicked out for calling them Prime Minister David Cameron “Dodgy Dave” and refusing to retract it.
Are you quoting some rule or just your own expectation?
I’m in Portugal. I’ve seen direct insults exchanged between representatives, a clear violation of manners and language, and the representative was not removed from the chamber. Their word was removed, a sanction issued, but that was it. We have representatives with active criminal charges in place that were not removed.
It changes from country to country. I some countries they even fight each other and throw stuff with no repercussions.
You’re right it does vary from country to country.
However, I don’t personally think it does the process any good if thing can descend into playground insults or violence. I’m in favour of people being expelled if they can’t maintain a base level of behaviour.
You’re thinking of Taiwan?
Well…I certainly am now
That makes two, then.
Another Portuguese, the world is small.
It’s small for others. We are everywhere.
13.2% of the inhabitants of Luxembourg are Portuguese.
#JustColonialThings
Water under the bridge. We just roam and spread everywhere.
I have lots of Portuguese neighbors here in California, so this checks out.
How are those guys? Friendly and caring folks? Or someone you should keep a distance from?
Save this example for the next time some chud tries to tell you colonization is a past event and not an ongoing process right this minute
Colonialism is alive and well in NZ.
It was clear the collective western governance doesn’t give a shit about indigenous people when they facilitated, funded, supplied arms, and downplayed the palestinian genocide. Their “human rights” only extends to marketing themselves as moral civilized people, while making themselves rich and powerful comes first.
Honourable cause, not good praxis interjecting it into random topics making people more fed up hearing about it than they’re fed up hearing about vegans.
White folks stepping on brown folks isnt really a different topic, but I dont really disagree with you here either.
This was five months ago. The MPs haka sparked national protest and a nine day march against the Treaty Principles Bill, which did not pass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Principles_Bill
Sounds like it worked, and now the conservatives are mad and trying to punish?
Pretty much. That and trying to distract people from the details of their budget, which will without doubt be all the usual crap you’d expect from conservatives.
The bill was never going to pass, the other two parties in the coalition had made it very clear they would support the bill to its first reading and no further, and only agreed to support it that far because they couldn’t have formed a government otherwise.
This didn’t really change anything.
So if it was never going to pass, what was the point of introducing it? Just a provocation?
You’ll have to ask David Seymour that question.
Because they wanted to get their minor coalition partners the colonialist vote. Which of course means they wanted the colonialist vote by proxy.
I would venture to guess that the disciplinary action generated more attention than the haka itself. So a good thing in the end.
Pretty amazing, the NZ conservatives mount a major attack on Māori and are then intimidated by haka. Snowflakes.
[Actual video] (https://youtu.be/25AUCNZKEnY)
That was pretty badass.
Is it wrong that I found that pretty hot?
Woman: exists
Gooner: is for me?
The word “gooner” has been diluted so much it’s not being used to describe basic words of attraction…
The point being it’s obnoxious that discussions of any female politician at some point have to bring up their attractiveness. It’s completely irrelevant to the work they do. I can’t think of male politicians getting the same treatment.
The point being it’s obnoxious that discussions of any female politician at some point have to bring up their attractiveness.
Her badassery was brought up. Yes, badass women are attractive, deal with it.
Ah, at more or less frequent time spans I end up searching the internet for all these amazing ritual performances (forgive my ignorance, I am from North Europe so don’t really know what it is exactly or what it should be called) of the Māori.
I get so captured and enchanted by them, it’s so powerful but often also beautiful and somehow extremely sorrowful or whatever emotion the display is intended to signal (or at least ends up signaling to me as a complete ignorant foreigner), I always end up wondering that had Christianity not crusaded our lands and bloodily murdered and genocided our cultures, might we have something equally powerful and captivating to preserve? It’s not a far fetch because we do have a lot of remnants and first party findings on the old Norwegian and Danish and Swedish cultures of around the Northern European Iron Age for example, that had similar sort of rituals or even just musical tastes and conventions. Our peoples neighbored those, though were distinct and entirely different on most fronts, though a lot of people today fancy conflating us with the “Vikings”. We were their looting ground for the most part and any influence from their culture on ours would’ve been likely equally bloodily brought. But I digress.
Had the southerners not crusaded and killed most of us off, snuffed out the light of our culture, forced everyone brutally to follow whatever flavor of Christ each crusade was bringing, maybe I shouldn’t feel so amazed by the amazing cultures far away. But maybe we didn’t have anything as powerful in the first place, who knows at this point…
But these shows of force and unity are always so captivating, I end up bingeing videos of them for hours on end, even if I don’t really know what they are about and what each of them mean.
I love this. It’s so close to my heart somehow, feels so close to home, yet it’s a faraway thing.
I totally get where you’re coming from, and I agree Christianity did snuff out a lot of that, but not necessarily the way you may be thinking of it. Christianity was a face, tool, and motivation of empire, and empire seeks to standardize culture for the sake of stability. Christianity has deeply powerful cultural performances too. There are traditional catholic rituals that by their nature as a force of colonizing power and as part of globally dominant cultures (and as part of our own cultures) we see differently from this.
This haka was powerful and beautiful, and part of that is by its own merit, but part is that it is people and culture resisting colonial power.
Also, the modern era has been immensely destructive to culture and ritual except where it is intentionally preserved. While it would be easy to pin it on Christianity and the protestant reformation, the reality is that it’s also caused by the formation of nations (the unification of Italy for example created a shared culture between Venice and Rome for the first time since the fall of the western empire), the advent of mass travel and communication, the rise of industrialized lifestyles, and the shift from generation after generation living in the same spot to the normalization of living somewhat far from your family, all of which combined to more or less radically weaken local cultures.
You make sense, it’s easy to reduce these things into a couple of easy “villains” to point my finger at, but in reality things are always much, much more complex.
For whatever reason, it’s a touchy topic for me and often takes a few steps taken back to see it straight so to say.
Thanks for the perspective!
might we have something equally powerful and captivating to preserve?
…no. As in: That’s not the kind of cultural practice Christianisation wiped out or we wouldn’t be burning stuff come spring, dance around maypoles, and whatnot. The Faroese are still into singing sagas as an actual community practice. Missionaries back then weren’t trying to regiment people into factory workers, make them sit still on chairs and such.
It’s kind of a grass is greener on the other side kind of situation. There’s a good reason stuff like Heilung is captivating, but that’s because they’re modern-day shamans speaking to instincts buried by modernity, not because they’d be historical in their music or practices. Norse folk music indeed sounded pretty much like Norse folk music does today.
I get your sentiment, but I’m talking about Finnic heritage and culture, we have some stuff preserved, though a lot of it warped by Christian stuff bleeding into them, but no real knowledge of what the music around here was like. From the Scandinavians, we have even primary sources and good findings, but I am fairly certain what we had here was much different, just not preserved. A lot of the crusades were from the Scandinavians, former “Vikings”, which means we do have some amount of warped cultural traditions similar to theirs, but that is most likely a result and the outcome of hundred years of crusades, annexation, occupation and conquest. So in a sense it’s true Christianity alone didn’t result in our lost cultural traditions, it was the more powerful cousins we have from the West as well.
But I do not agree that it’s entirely just “grass is greener” kind of situation and that the influence and violence from the faiths and the peoples from the South and the West (and the East!) played no critical part in silencing whatever we used to have around here. If we take your proposal for example, that would mean that we were very alike to the Scandinavians, since those are mostly the “pagan” traditions that remain in some thinned out, distorted ways, here too. But everything, the entirely different language origins, the cultural merging more with the Siberian and Sami peoples on top of our own original foreigness among these Scandinavian neighbors, everything points to it being unlikely our customs were the same. Our religion was entirely different to those of our Western cousins. You would assume the customs, traditions, rites, the music and all, would’ve been entirely different as well, since most of them leaned into those two things: the language (as in the preservation of:) and the all-encompassing nature of faiths of that time as sort of the merged “science”, culture and religion.
But I was vague in my original comment, which probably lead to this tangent. While I’m not an academic in the histories of our culture, I have been interested in it and consuming all kinds of content regarding it (the little we have…) all my life. I feel like I am in line with the current consensus. But maybe not. Take it as you will.
If we take your proposal for example, that would mean that we were very alike to the Scandinavians, since those are mostly the “pagan” traditions that remain in some thinned out, distorted ways, here too.
I guess what I want to say overall is that you shouldn’t confuse the impact of Christianisation with the impact of being neighbours for millennia. Of course you both have Saunas, why wouldn’t they copy you, long before the crusades. There’s indubitably lots of influence in areas such as administration, but folk dances, music? Which tax collector has ever cared about that, that kind of thing travels from village to neighbouring village, the occasional travelling musician, not via state structures.
The Catholic Church definitely had influence on music as they had their stuff standardised but then not every village had a church much less a choir much less organ, nor would you want to dance to their chants. They didn’t unify Europe musically, why would they care to. What they did do is popularise polyphony.
On the flipside: Tradition is not praying to the ashes, but passing on the fire. If there’s some specifically Finnish spark that makes you produce the amount and quality of metal that you do then, by all means, do blaze on. Why go backwards, how would that be more authentic.
Fair enough, those are good points.
I might have gotten a little defensive there for no real reason. It’s a thin line to walk, and unfortunately I find myself often approaching the forbidden (and rightly so) lands of some variation or cultural exceptionalism, and even worse, based on nothing actual or concrete, just vague “what-if”s and imagination.
Sorry about all that
Agreed. If that had been targeted at me, I would have crapped my pants.
The Speaker sure looked like he wanted to.
Wider angle video showing the whole scope of it plus his reaction, which was priceless.
I think maybe he actually did.
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The haka happened last November. They haven’t been punished until now. You’d think if it was that severe they wouldn’t wait 5 months to punish them for it.
I wonder how close they anticipate that vote being.
My bet is those 3 votes would have made a difference.
A ritual dance is physical intimidation? I suppose you’d say having aggressive body language (looking angry) is physical intimidation too.
We should put all government officials on valium so they don’t accidentally get too emotionally invested in what they’re discussing, lest they accidentally physically intimidate someone with an angry face.
Obviously ministers with resting-bitch-face will have to be permanently barred from attending parliament, for the safety of their colleagues. We wouldn’t want such blatant physical intimidation on the day to day after all.
The point being, if you think a native ritual dance is the same as being physically intimidated, rather than seeing it as their culture’s way of expressing their feelings on some important matters, then you’re entirely missing the point and showing a lack of understanding of your own nation’s culture at a basic level, and probably shouldn’t be representing those same citizens at the government level.
I imagine politicians that clueless would just say “Oh my, the natives have gone feral! Look at that display of raw physical intimidation! Jeeves, fetch my musket and don’t fire till you see the whites of their eyes!”
If you feel physically intimidated by what is essentially some well known and well respected people in a debating hall being angry about the current topic of discussion and telling you they’re angry in a recognised and common cultural manner, then I can’t help you.
You seem very uninformed about the history of the Haka.
There are many different ones, but the most common one, Ka Mate, is usually performed by sports teams before a game, and is meant to be intimidating.
They were historically performed by a tribe’s mightiest warriors when other chiefs came to visit, as one example. They’re often a war dance, a show of power.
The audience is supposed to be intimidated
Of course intimidation is the point – psychological/political intimidation, not physical. Context matters. Don’t try to pretend that the other MPs were scared they were gonna charge at them with taiahas or something, because that’s bullshit and you know it.
Actually, I don’t think one of the Maori party MPs throwing hands is particularly far fetched.
A ritual dance is physical intimidation?
Yes
I suppose you’d say having aggressive body language (looking angry) is physical intimidation too.
Yes (but just looking angry is not body language. It’s a facial expression. Screaming at someone with your arms flailing is aggressive body language)
Do you even know the history of the Haka? It’s a warrior’s dance to intimidate their foes. Modern haka can have many meanings, but that’s it’s root.
Its root is in physical intimidation before battle yes, but on the floor of parliament it’s clearly intended as an act of cultural display of resistance, not one of “do as we say or we will hurt you”.
The modern suit comes from military uniforms. Hell, they have a guy with a mace when parliament is in session. This military imagery has come to the authority of the democratic process and appears at least throughout the anglosphere, but it’s using military imagery to do so.
Just as the colonizer uses military imagery to represent the authority and tradition of institutions, the colonized may use their own military imagery to represent opposition to colonial acts.
Yes there’s lots of ceremonial aspects to parliament and if they wanted to include more maori tradition into it, I’d be all in favour.
This is akin to randomly bellowing out the national anthem in the middle of a voting session but with more bite. I’d expect somebody doing that to be sanctioned too.
This is akin to randomly bellowing out the national anthem in the middle of a voting session but with more bite. I’d expect somebody doing that to be sanctioned too.
With the harshest punishment ever given within their government?
Hey hey now, what’s with this intimidating post? Sounds like I may need my gun.
Did you see the video? The arm stuff looks like jazz hands.
A dance is not equate to a gun, this is not some magical world where people cast spell by dancing 🤦
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Dance like these is as intimidating as getting booed, they should quit their leadership position if they feel physically threatened by it. It’s a dance, hon, not waving gun or sword around.
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Nah, we’re just not bigots like you.
You can fuck allll the way off.
So can you really!? Not helpful discourse at all.
I dunno, trying to educate shit people has gotten us nowhere either. Might as well just tell em to fuck off.
And after you’re done fucking off, please go right ahead and keep fucking off until you reach the sun
Wait, if we could harness that level of fuck off power, we could transition to renewable energy much sooner.
So don’t delay, fuck now, supplies are fucking out
Fuck now, if you’re still alive, six to eight fucks to arrive
And if you fuck more, there may be a tomorrow
But if the offer’s fucked
You might as well be fuckin’ on the sun
When the threats come from governaments you suddenly stop caring i bet
Fuck the King
Like the French do.
So who can regale us on why the current coalition is running cover for colonialists in New Zealand. I thought that was usually a losing move there.
Can you elaborate? Which country is invading or colonializing NZ? This is genuinely news to me, I assumed NZ is a free country.
Yeah, gotta export that freedom to them Maori and ignore the rule of law by treaty with them yeah? What’s that got to do with colonialism? Can’t even be related. Who would even think such a thing? I am truly shocked.
Can you stop being an ass? That was a genuine question as I have zero understanding about what’s going on in NZ. I have no clue who “they” is.
Is there a real military threat? Consequences from colonialism time? Another country influencing the NZ government?
We got the project 2025 test run when a three party far right coalition got elected in 2023. Most regressive, cruel and mean sprited government in a generation.
USA, NZ, Australia, Canada, UK and beyond. They all coordinate, they use the same consultants, the same messages, their AstroTurf political advocacy groups all share info and coordinate policy to make our lives worse and the rich richer. Tailored slightly for local conditions but the same overall goal.
They really are a cancer all over the Western societies.
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Shame on you for calling a deeply historic cultural dance “yelling like an animal”. Fucking colonizer mindset is still alive and well, it seems
Idk a county where minorities can briefly express disagreement in their own idiom seems pretty nice to me.
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You are missing the context of Maori culture being alive and well in NZ, in NZ Parliament and that the haka was a response to the erosion of Maori rights… In NZ.
No one was harmed by the haka.
Before you go calling folks disingenuous, you may want to get more background information.
No one was harmed by the haka.
The vote was delayed. You also don’t know the reaction of other parliamentary members. The context of the haka is a dance done to intimidate enemies. Maybe some of the other members feel intimidated now.
If I was a parliament member and stood up with 3 of my pals and loudly threatened another member, what do you think would happen to me?
Wouldn’t want parliamentary process to be disrupted in any way by Maori’s expressing concern about laws that are going to affect them negatively.
/s
No one was harmed by the haka.
The vote was delayed.
Did he fucking stutter? If anything, it sounds like delaying the vote was an attempt to prevent harm.
Maybe some of the other members feel intimidated now.
That doesn’t count as “harm” either, you dishonest ass.
in the USA we are purported to have “freedom of speech”
Can you elaborate further on the cultural context of the haka, fellow American?
I really hate this “you’re an outsider so you can’t have an opinion”. Am I only allowed to consider things in America?
You can consider whatever the heck you want but please don’t assert as fact your understanding of the cultural context of an art form from the other side of the globe.
lol that’s a hell of a strawman
“you’re being disingenuous, what about child sacrifice”
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I somewhat agree, but on the other hand its not the right place to do it.
If somebody would come and play bagpipes, or start yodel in a courtroom or parlament they would be asked to stop too. And i bet if in those cases they would not stop, they would get reprimands too. No matter how cultural it is.
“'[Parliament is] not the right place to [protest for your rights that Parliament is actively voting to remove].”
You’re racist that’s her culture not yelling like an animal.
Way to be an ignorant dweeb dude definitely take that shit back maybe delete your comment.
Get fucked, loser. Their culture, their land.
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Isn’t the point of the Haka to make the opponent uncomfortable? It’s a war ritual after all. And in this case it’s well applied, if someone wanted to take away my rights I would consider them my enemies too.
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“Might makes right” - you
Sti going to believe that when someone invades your home?
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what kind of country are you creating
one that doesn’t take away the rights of her people
if you want so bad to live in a “civilized” country where Indigenous people don’t bother you with their existence, go back to england you fucking colonizer
You say this, but the people yelling and screaming are typically the ones that are pushing for progress, while the people that hide behind “decorum” are the ones trying to strip people of their rights and funnel money into capital.
Also, human beings are animals…
Found the guy who’s never seen a Prime Minister’s Question Time.
Have you seen the things average MPs get away with in NZ (and Australia) in parliament ?
Yes, we mustn’t do that, instead we should filibuster for 16 hours.
Or, just perhaps, different cultures have different standards for how they protest in a debate.
My man have you seen any parliament session in any democratic country at all? This is very normal for parliament session, it is often rowdy especially when debating a hot and controversial topic, and it IS part of the civilised world.
Stfu
Colonialist rules to oppress the racialized victims of genocide
Why would your idea of “normal” be more justified than that of others?
