Original post: https://bsky.app/profile/ssg.dev/post/3lmuz3nr62k26
Email from Bluesky in the screenshot:
Hi there,
We are writing to inform you that we have received a formal request from a legal authority in Turkey regarding the removal of your account associated with the following handle (@carekavga.bsky.social) on Bluesky.
The legal authority has claimed that this content violates local laws in Turkey. As a result, we are required to review the request in accordance with local regulations and Bluesky’s policies.
Following a thorough review, we have determined that the content in question violates local laws in Turkey, as outlined in the legal request. In compliance with these legal provisions, we have restricted access to your account for users.
pardon my ignorance, but how is a de-centralized and de-federated online community bound to such annoyances?
They’re still a corporate entity, and they still want access to markets to make money.
i think i’m conflating lemmy with bluesky. can’t anyone just host an instance? is it open-source? sorry, i should probably just look into this myself.
I think Mastodon is closer to Lemmy as a Twitter alternative over Bluesky.
However, this does a good job explaining the differences:
thanks - you’ve got it. i forgot about mastadon. ironic, really, since it’s the resource that everyone will be scrambling for in a few days. mark my words: something horrible is going to happen this weekend, and it will change your life forever.
What makes you think that? Genuinely curious.
Claims of Bsky’s federatedness and decentralizedness were greatly exaggerated.
Assuming you are serious:
Bluesky is … arguably ‘federated’, but it is centralized, not decentralized.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20241128-bluesky-decentralization
Their model (AT Protocol) relies on a central, authoritative … ‘Relay’, that all ‘federated’ users and posts on federated PDS (personal data servers) must go through, to actually reach the ‘AppView’, ie, what all other people/users can actually see.
So, this is not a many to many, tangled spider web of connections, the way lemmy, and other parts of the actual fediverse are.
It is a top down hierarchy, a pyramid.
And Bluesky runs the Relay, the chokepoint.
If Bluesky cuts off the PDS your account is on, everyone on it is now gone.
The actual fediverse, Mastadon, Lemmy, etc, runs on ActivityPub.
In that model… every instance is essentially self contained, and every instance that is federated communicates with every other instance that is federated.
Each instance can decide what other instances they want to federate with… and users on each instance can personally block even more other users, communities, or entire instances if they choose to, but that only effects what that particular user sees.
That is what you call decentralized, approaching, or also having elements of being ‘distributed’.
To bring up an example without getting into the drama that led to it:
The ‘Tankie Triad’ of ml, lemmygrad and hexbear have had a number of other instances defederate from them.
But, there are also a good number of instances that have not done so.
So that means if your account is on hexbear… you can’t see or post on an instamce that has blocked your instance.
But, if you (a hexbear…ian?), post on a neutral instance… users on that neutral instance will see the post.
But but, if a user from an instance that has defederated from hexbear goes to to the neutral instance… they will not see the hexbearian’s post.
This sounds complicated, and it is, but … thats the whole point of a decentralized system. It is more complex in the abstract… but the entire system ends up being more robust, more adaptable, more customizable… without a central authority in direct control of the entire system.
For those who don’t know, Bluesky isn’t really federated. The only way to host a non-Bluesky instance required 1TB of storage in July 2024, and 5 TB of storage in Nov 2024. Could be way more than that now.
You basically have to be a company to federate into the ATProto (Bluesky) ecosystem. You can’t just “stand up an instance”.
Lots of detail: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
(I know you’ve already realized that you were conflating Mastodon with Bluesky, I’m putting this here for others who come along so they can get the facts).
Also DMs always go through Bluesky themselves.
yeah the DM system is something completely exclusive to their official servers and that they just rolled up without caring at all about trying to keep up the pretense of wanting to build something decentralized.
That’s not an outlandish amount of storage. You can get more than that for $200.
Yeah anyone who runs a node is laughing at those numbers
My Jellyfin server is 6 times that… And my gaming PC is double that… Seriously, this person thinks 5TB is a lot? Don’t we have SD Cards/Flash Drives this big now? I’d be WAY more concerned about the bandwidth requirements.
Edit: laughing my ass off at the downvotes. Yes, my server has 30TB. Yes my PC has around 12TB. It wasn’t expensive or hard. The hard drives in my Jellyfin are NAS drives… Bunch of people acting like you need quantum computers to run a node lmfao. Storage space is easy. It’s the networking and bandwidth part that’s hard. So yeah, complaining that 5TB of storage puts it out of reach of the average person when one 12tb NAS drive cost $200? Just bitching. Plain and simple.
its still not a small amount of storage. and no, there’s still not really sd cards or flash drives bigger than 1tb, but obviously even if there were and they were super cheap, that would still never suffice as server storage. plus, if you’re hosting a node you’d want at least 4 or 5 times that storage to use a raid 5 or 6 array + at least one onsite backup, and one off-site backup.
now we’re talking thousands of dollars in equipment just for storage, not the actual server itself, internet connection, etc.
there’s still not really sd cards or flash drives bigger than 1tb
There are actually 2tb microSD cards now, and 4tb flash drives
You literally just described my Jellyfin, minus the raid because I don’t feel like setting it up. Think all in all I’m down about $1200 for it. Not thousands. You do realized a 12TB NAS drive is $200, right? Only reason my build cost as much is because I have a few 2TB ssds in there which were just leftovers from the PC anyways. I could’ve done it all for $500.
Off-site backup isn’t required. Nice, but not required at all. In the literal sense, you don’t need it. It’s good to have, but an extra.
So yeah, 5TB, literally the only metric I was discussing, isn’t much. Maybe in the future the person should say all the nuance and not “5TB is unreasonable for the average person”. It’s not. Plain and simple.
Bluesky is a for-profit company that is capitalizing on the Xodus. They may be better for the time being, but the march for more and more profit will end the same as it always does. Enshittification. They are not the good guys, the fediverse is.
It was an obvious op from the beginning. You could tell by the people they were trotting out to sell it. Lots of liberal pro-authority types.
They are not the good guys, the fediverse is.
I think you’re overselling the Fediverse here. The Fediverse also absolutely has censorship, it’s just by individual instance admins instead of a for-profit company. If large, influential instances shut down or defederate, a lot of content goes with it.
Yeah, federated instances technically cache that data, but those communities are effectively dead, links are broken, etc. Users can jump to other services, sure, but the service isn’t the same.
We’ve seen this here on Lemmy. Beehaw was a cool instance, but they defederated fairly early on. Lemmy.ml was super impactful, but their admins are super aggressive with moderation to the point that many avoid their communities. And so on.
Whether “the Fediverse” is good depends on your instance and the mods and admins of the various communities you are part of. That kind of sucks.
Maybe it sucks less than whatever major social media network you’re comparing to, but I hesitate to call it “good,” just different.
i don’t get why this is shocking; if you do business in a country you have to follow local laws.
Honestly at this point I want to host a distributed Lemmy instance and completely ignore all country laws in favor of complete and absolute freedom of speech.
It might sound extreme, but pretty sure at this point I’d be willing to die for it given the state of global politics.
Sorry, man. I don’t think Kiddie Pornhub is a good idea.
Who the fuck said anything about porn of any kind? People always use protecting kids as a way to censor the Internet and it’s almost always in bad faith.
You did.
completely ignore all country laws in favor of complete and absolute freedom of speech.
If you didn’t realize what you said, hopefully you’ll rethink your goals to include the obvious end results. I suppose you could disallow images of you’re not serious about “complete freedom”, then you just have NeoNazis instead of pedophiles.
Your comment is so mired in ignorance, to think you would oppose free speech over how it would be abused and ignore the net positive is exactly how we’re losing freedoms each and every day.
People like you are ruining the world while telling people you’re fixing it.
When someone says they want to create a haven for NeoNazis and pedophiles, I just want to check in and see if they’ve thought things through. It’s hilarious how you’re calling me names for pointing out the obious problem instead of trying to come up with any way to mitigate the harm.
I don’t think you’ll be doing enough good to make a net positive from your child pornography and Nazi haven. Have fun though.
You are the only one talking about Nazis and Porn. Your argument reeks of strawman, attacking the concept for something it isn’t even.
You know who it does protect? Minorities, freedom fighters, people trying to get in and out of bad situations with fascist governments and restrictions on what they can say and who they can speak out against.
People like you, you specifically, you are exactly the problem.
Where is bluesky based? As far as I know you have to follow the laws of where you are based. Otherwisse we’d have to follow the lowest common denominator, like north korea, or afghanistan or the like
it doesn’t matter where you’re based; if you’re operating in a country, you follow the laws of that country.
Or you play a cat-and-mouse game with the authorities in that country as they try to block access to your servers. Depending on your moral values this might be preferable to blindly following the laws of authoritarian regimes.
It’s really the country you’re based in that matters the most.
Don’t replace X with Bluesky! Go to Mastodon and other Federalised platforms. That is the only way to escape corporate-sponsored fascism.
And now you know why corporations and politicians don’t use mastodon
Fake Fediverse is fake.
Fuck Turkey and fuck however they want it spelt.
Re: “(…) fuck however they want it spelt.”
As a Turkish person, I’m with you on this.
If the Turkish government wants you to refer to Turkey as Türkiye, then they shouldn’t be allowed to call the US “Amerika Birleşik Devletleri”: they should be required to pronounce it United States of America.
Let’s see how they like it then, lol. “Yunayıted Sıtets af Amerika”, hah.
Wow, all the bsky lovers are now facing the reality. None of the corpos have user’s interest in mind. They only care about numbers: number of active users’ data that they can sell to the highest bidder.
Funny as I got downvoted to oblivion for saying Bluesky was not really decentralized.
A decentralized service like Mastodon will have the same issues when governments are knocking on the door. The turkish government totally can force all those small turkish instance admins to defederate instances who are not reacting to legal threats. And all those small admins don’t have the resources to fight a lengthy legal battle against their own government
The flip side of that is that instances large and small outside of the influence of the government can do as they please and people can use other means, like VPNs, to access them.
That’s the entire point, right? Just use an instance that’s in a country that’s not closely allied with Turkey. Everyone knows that, right? Right?
I sort of feel like that’s not really relevant. How would being decentralised make any difference, the government would just go after the server owners regardless of who they are. If the server owners didn’t honour the takedown requests turkey would just ban the server IP and no one would be able to access.
Federation isn’t a solution to every problem
If it was truly decentralized it would be like Bitcoin that has not been brought down by any government or organization yet they sure have tried.
How would being decentralised make any difference
You sign up on a server that isn’t in Turkey and doesn’t give a shit to respond to turkish demands.
Now turkey can only control the servers that are within it’s countries, and has to submit requests to ALL of them rather than just one. And even then can’t remove you from the rest of the federation.
Right but my point is they would just submit the request to the host server. If the original is taken down then all the federated service will lose the comments as well.
If the host server just straight up ignores turkey then they’ll block all servers that host Mastodon and say mastered on is a rogue element. Better you just remove the offending comment
Despite the failures (or needs-of-improvement) of the current federation model, it is absolutely safe against that. Federation is copies, not links.
Right but my point is they would just submit the request to the host server. If the original is taken down then all the federated service will lose the comments as well.
Not how federation works. Let’s take a lemmy post as an example. If a server is federated with another and a new post is made, all subscribed servers are notified and a copy of the item is sent in that notification. If the original is “taken down” the copies still exist on the other servers and any deletion event is in ALL of their modlogs. ANY instance can “undelete” or revert the removal, or just ignore the deletion request all together (or roll back the database, or any number of operations to revert a change). The items doesn’t just go away. The “origin” doesn’t have all that much power to force other listening servers to do anything.
This also extends to comments. I run my own small instance with me and a few friends. My server never had serious downtime because it’s just us. Our access to larger instances never “vanished” even as their sites went completely down. The local content is effectively cached regardless of the state of the origin server.
If the host server just straight up ignores turkey then they’ll block all servers that host Mastodon
Good luck with that… There’s a lot of servers that can talk the same federation protocol. You’re not going to get them all. Forget all the normal means of bypassing blocks… you have so many fediverse and threadiverse servers to attach to in order to access largely similar content.
Do we have any information as to what kind of stuff was in there that got censored? I see alot of people here claiming its some political move towards censorship. Do we know this person was not using their account to trade grass and other nono products openly?
Baby. You are and will always be controlled. Understand that.
If only there was a decentralised alternative, that was more or less immune to this… LOL
How would decentralized alternatives be immune to this?
Bluesky doesn’t work if the IP gets blocked in Turkey, but with Mastodon, you would have to ban every single IP from every Mastodon instance and potentially all other IPs on the Fediverse.
Let’s say Turkey blocks mastodon.social. Now people in Turkey can’t access Mastodon.social under normal circumstances, but they can still access fosstodon.org, mstdn.social etc. and access the content from Mastodon.social through those other sites.
Only issue could be media uploaded to Mastodon.social, that’s blocked, unless it has been cached by the website you use.
I’m afraid a federated micro-blogging website using ActivityPub doesn’t/can’t exist ;_;
/s?
There’s Mastodon and a ton of others.
It’s old internet sarcasm, I seent it many times in my life. Yeah, pretty sure it was harmless satire :) the emoticon at the end is a dead giveaway maybe—that there looks like a millennial or zillenial calling card
Damn…I’ve been discovered
I’m just used to the “/s” for when something is written sarcastically.
Yeah that’s new 2014+ Reddit technology, back in the early days of the internet sarcasm was a lot harder to detect and you were expected to figure it out with context haha
lots of us don’t know people expect /s and still try to be sarcastic without /s
instead we used clues like emojis to denote it’s not serious like “lol” or “haha” when it’s sarcastic and funny or ;-; or T-T when it’s sarcasm and expressing frustration
I will be dead in the cold cold ground before I ever type “/s”
Same, but I feel like a steward of the web, I’ve been using it for so long lol
What was the post
Probably said something bad about their current dictator.
He isn’t a dictator, he actually survived a military coup, and unlike his nationalist opponents he has welcomed refugees.
Oh look, once again, I was right.
Be shocked if it wasn’t so common.
